[1|50] How many is a lot? Name: Nightshade #303 @5415 Date: Thu Aug 19 22:43:04 1993 From: The Guild [504-282-8270] Re: I have been staying at my brother's house since it happened. BY: Light #31 @5415 And at what point in pregnancy? The vast majority of miscarriages happen in the first three months, with most of these happening within the first few weeks. If you've made it this far along, you're probably ok. I'd quit listening to these horror story tellers if I were you. [2|50] Ok. Ok. Name: Light #31 @5415 Date: Fri Aug 20 19:56:23 1993 From: The Guild [504-282-8270] Re: How many is a lot? BY: Nightshade #303 @5415 I suppose I am looking to much at the bad side. I am still scared though. [3|50] delayed reaction to grief Name: Queen Mother #33 @15286 Date: Fri Aug 20 02:05:26 1993 From: Alpha Complex [512-478-3332] Re: You know, BY: Light #31 @5415 Msg Status - No Reply Necessary "But now, I am crying as much for my brother's child as I am for my father. As i cry, I seem to be feeling better. My brother and I are both here...crying. But I get the feeling, everything is going to be ok." Delayed reaction to grief is not unusual. A person can lose someone very close to them and not cry at the time. Sometimes they even feel odd about it, especially if they were very close to the one who died. I knew a woman who lost her father and didn't cry until years later when she attended the funeral of a friend's father. She didn't even know the man...the tears were finally coming out for her own father. I am so glad that you and your brother are letting the grief come out and am also glad that your sister-in-law is beginning to take notice of herself and the world around her. I agree with the advice that they seek outside professional help (others have posted numerous possible sources). We are all deeply concerned for you. Thanks for taking the time to keep posting on your progress. I'm glad you're seeing your doctor frequently right now. What does s/he say about how your pregnancy is coming along? [4|50] Crying comes when it is ready... Name: -=<< Doc >>=- #1 @8414 Date: Sat Aug 21 23:23:10 1993 From: Whistlestop West [804-784-7014] Re: You know, BY: Light #31 @5415 At first, a person might be so numb that they are not ready for release of emotions, the release that crying offers us. I had a really good friend that died, of an (accidental, we think) drug overdose. His mother called me and told me about it the day I came home from the hospital with my new daughter. I didn't cry. I wondered why no tears came. Then, almost a year later, I dreamed about my friend...and woke up crying and then I wept for him and the waste of human life. Tears come when they are ready and we are ready for them. [5|50] I started looking into support groups today. Name: Light #31 @5415 Date: Sat Aug 21 21:52:23 1993 From: The Guild [504-282-8270] Re: the comments about divorce BY: Miss Scarlett #1 @3315 I did not get very far. I had to keep my sister-in-law from trying to committe suicide. She seems to think it is a good way out of the pain. I have been with her all day. She is asleep now, thank goodness. I will continue looking as soon as i know I can leave her alone with herself. [6|50] I have been trying to get them counseling. Name: Light #31 @5415 Date: Sat Aug 21 21:54:49 1993 From: The Guild [504-282-8270] Re: Light.... BY: Lovecat #2 @9939 [Sensual Seraph] I figured that if I can get a counseler to come and talk with them in the home, then they can decide for themselves if they want to go to the support groups. [7|50] Someone has already said it
. Name: Light #31 @5415 Date: Sat Aug 21 21:55:41 1993 From: The Guild [504-282-8270] Re: a suggestion... BY: Captain Midnight #54 @8414 I am working on it. Thank you for thinking about it. [8|50] He has not said anything about divorce in the past 2 days. Name: Light #31 @5415 Date: Sat Aug 21 21:57:29 1993 From: The Guild [504-282-8270] Re: Talk to him and tell him... BY: Foxx #82 @2911 He is now getting concerned about his wifes behavior. I will take it as a good sign. [9|50] I hope... Name: Light #31 @5415 Date: Sat Aug 21 21:58:07 1993 From: The Guild [504-282-8270] Re: Odds favor BY: The Traveler #1 @8267 (Religion? ) I hope you are right. [10|50] He has finally cried. Name: Light #31 @5415 Date: Sat Aug 21 22:00:07 1993 From: The Guild [504-282-8270] Re: to Light on brother and his wife... BY: Queen Mother #33 @15286 It took him a while, but he is grieving. [11|50] I hope this is appropriate.... Name: Kari Ana Smith #8 @2911 Date: Tuesday, August 24, 1993 2:32 pm From: The Bulls Locker I [209-883-4335] eight years ago I had my first miscarriage. the doctors poo poo the whole thing as what happens to many women with their first pregnancy. A year later I suffered yet another miscarriage. Again the doctors poo pooed my fears and sent me on my way. After a short period of time I changed doctors and after many tests and a lot of agony it was discovered that I had massive scar tissue surrounding my female organs and that this was the cause of both miscarriages. I have had to learn to live with the knowledge that my body crushed my babies. This is very difficult for me since it was necessary for me to have a hysterectomy. I can understand what Light and her family is going through. I have been sending my thoughts and my prayers to them. I'm truly sorry I can't say the pain will totally go away. I still will wake up in the middle of the night and cry for my loss. This tradegy has brought back so many memories for me. It is so painful to deal with the loss of a child. I will say that I have learned that when these situations occur that it can make a relationship stronger when the parents reach out to each other. Lean on each other. Please Light, tell your brother to hold his wife and not let her push him away. It will compound the tragedy if they lose each other as well. If anyone needs any support I am as much here for all of you as you have been here for me. Please E-mail me if need me. I really hope I have helped and not hurt. [12|50] Help? Name: Jalapeno #254 @8119 Date: Mon Aug 23 12:05:42 1993 From: The Driver's Seat BBS [801-973-0193] Am I beyond Help??? [13|50] Well, Name: Light #31 @5415 Date: Mon Aug 23 02:07:55 1993 From: The Guild [504-282-8270] Re: delayed reaction to grief BY: Queen Mother #33 @15286 My pregnacy is coming on great. They took pictures of the baby in my stomach. Um, well, both of the babies. WOW! Two babies! Twins! Never before in my family, that I know of, has this happened! It is rare for full blooded Indians to have twins. I hope they are both going to be ok. Thank you for taking the time to check in on me. I am begining to feel like I can say anything here. Thanks for caring. [14|50] I am glad it happened for you. Name: Light #31 @5415 Date: Mon Aug 23 02:09:25 1993 From: The Guild [504-282-8270] Re: Crying comes when it is ready... BY: -=<< Doc >>=- #1 @8414 It seems to hurt more when the tears do not come. And when they do come, it is such a relief that you want to sing after the tears stop. [15|50] Really sorry to hear... Name: Spunky #479 @2900 Date: Wed Aug 25 16:52:08 1993 From: Maxie's Toy [209-526-5899] IN REGARDS TO: I hope this is appropriate.... WRITTEN BY: Kari Ana Smith #8 @2911 Over the past years I had been careless and thought I was pregnant many times just to find out I was'nt...Which was fine back then. Then with my last fiance I did'nt have a period for 3 months and really thought I was. I was hoping and took a home pregnancy test. If I was then the dot on the container was supposed to turn pink...I don't think I ever stared so hard at something in my whole life. I kept asking my ex-fiance, "Are you sure it is not pink"?? I cried so hard for a long time. But I guess it just was not meant to be. WHen I was a teen-ager I had a really bad infection and I also thought I had massive scar tissue. Even my mom thought so...Well with my new fiance we talked about having a baby alot and I did'nt know if we should try because of financial reasons...He told me that if we were to wait until we were financially able to really afford to have baby, then we would be waiting for many years. So in Jan. I decided to get off the pill. Then Feb. rolled around and I missed another period and my body was feeling very different then normal. I talked to a nurse on the phone and she said that it could be possible that I was having a tubal pregnancy and to go to the emergency room ASAP. So I did. They took a blood test, urine, and x-rays. They were all negative....I had really thought I was pregnant this time that I even told family and friends that I might be and I bought like 15 different pregnancy books. I was really depressed...I did'nt have insurance at the time to find out what was wrong, although the doctor said that it was a false alarm due to me going off the pill, I still thought something was wrong internally.. I told my fiance that the next time my body felt different like that then I knew I would be preg-nant. And finally 5 months ago I missed another period and I was feeling kind of sick again. I went to a clinic to have another test done but was prepared for it to be negative once again...WHen the nurse called me in and said that it came out positive I screamed at the top of my lungs...I was so surprised. I was sure that maybe they had accidently swtiched tests with someone elses..I was so shocked I don't even remember walking out to my car..At my first obstitrician appointment I asked the doctor if I was really pregnant and she said I sure am..I am now 5 months pregnant, and I feel the baby kicking everyday, but I still cannot believe it after all this time. I do understand what you are going through. Unfortunatly my step-sister has had 3 miscarriages and it makes me sad...The doctor cannot figure out the cause yet, and she is still trying...Maybe one day. [16|50] inexcusable Name: mela #12 @8267 Date: Sun Aug 29 18:43:51 1993 [Regarding] [I hope this is appropriate....] [Posted By] [Kari Ana Smith #8 @2911] okay i can buy the doctors telling you that there's often a miscarriage with the first pregnancy because that is true, but after more miscarriages and the same thing keeps on happening they had business to open you up or examine you some way to find out what the hell was going on in there. what you had sounds like some kind of endometriosis (were your periods real painful?) geeze, what kind of crumby doctors did you have? they never take women's complaints seriously. sometimes even a woman doctor is no good, my friend was delivered by a woman gynecologist who completely bombed it and is slightly brain damaged as a result. his brother was delivered by a male gynecologist who knew what he was doing and he is fine. [17|50] Light... Name: Sparrow #129 @8403 Date: Thu Aug 26, 1993 14:38:15 From: Fire Chat BBS [804-330-0620] I have seen MANY responses to your posts. Everyone seems to be hanging in there with you. I'm sorry I haven't spoke up, but I have a little baby that was due the 22nd. He's yet to come out and in light of what you have told me, it's just very hard for me to face the fact that something like that COULD happen to my wife and I. It's a horrible thing to have happened to someone so close, but I hope you can just hang in there. Please don't let your sister's words get to you. I can tell you, once you carry that little life in you for 9 months (or more) and then you FINALLY get to see him/her...well, I'm told that it makes all the trouble of getting him/her here worth it. Your sister will be in pain for quite some time. This isn't one of those things that just blows over after a few months. It will take a long time for the pain to heal. My thoughts and prayers will go with you, your sister, and her husband. I hope they can keep it all together and not let this break up a wonderful marriage. Keep hoping! [18|50] No, no, no...Light... Name: Sparrow #129 @8403 Date: Thu Aug 26, 1993 14:38:17 From: Fire Chat BBS [804-330-0620] L~>I have been told that alot of new mothers misscary their first child. No. Trust me, I have looked into this subject. Most new mothers carry their babies for the whole term plus a few days. The first pregnancy IS the hardest one to go through, but if you take care of yourself, you'll have nothing to worry about. I remember reading something about you doing alot of the house work at your sister-in-laws, right? Well, that's a wonderful gesture, but the first thing you should do is worry about YOUR baby. If you over-stress yourself, then you could lose your baby as well. The most dangerous time in your baby's life is the first 5 months. It's isn't that common for pregnant women to miscarry before their second trimester is over. It's not that bad if you just do what you can, but always keep YOUR baby's health first in your head. Take care. [20|50] I do all of that on a regular basis anyway... Name: Light #31 @5415 Date: Thu Aug 26 01:12:54 1993 From: The Guild [504-282-8270] Re: about the baby BY: mela #12 @8267 I am a big one for that. We Indians find ways to keep peace of mind through simple things. [21|50] Yes. Name: Light #31 @5415 Date: Thu Aug 26 01:15:18 1993 From: The Guild [504-282-8270] Re: delayed grief BY: mela #12 @8267 That is as I have always believed. Thing is, it is so hard to find someone who shares the same views. [22|50] They are better. Name: Light #31 @5415 Date: Fri Aug 27 03:22:17 1993 From: The Guild [504-282-8270] Re: I hope this is appropriate.... BY: Kari Ana Smith #8 @2911 They are talking to eachother alot now...though avoiding discussion of the loss. My brother is going back to work. My sister-in-law will be going back to work soon as well. They are both in group therapy. They are doing much better...as am I....though I am getting pains in my stomach. [23|50] I do not believe... Name: Light #31 @5415 Date: Fri Aug 27 03:24:18 1993 From: The Guild [504-282-8270] Re: Help? I do not believe that anyone is beyond help. [24|50] I see what you mean. Name: Light #31 @5415 Date: Fri Aug 27 03:29:20 1993 From: The Guild [504-282-8270] Re: Really sorry to hear... BY: Spunky #479 @2900 I am four months pregnant now. I am pregnant with twins! They took pictures and all. They think they are both girls. I am glad you finally got pregnant. Maybe the baby was telling you to wait until you can afford to take care of it. Can you and your fiance take care of the baby now? [25|50] Light hit the jackpot! Name: Queen Mother #33 @15286 Date: Fri Aug 27 11:43:18 1993 From: Alpha Complex [512-478-3332] Re: Well, BY: Light #31 @5415 Fabulous! Fantastic!! Far out!!! (oops, slipped back into 60's lingo) I am completely THRILLED for you! TWINS!! I'm sure you will take ultra good care of yourself as twins often are born early, due to lack of space within the womb..heheh... I just know that everything is gonna work out great! Get a lotta rest...I'm sure you know and have been told how much work you'll be facing once they're born...oh I'm rambling on...I do that when I'm excited... ... :) Stay in touch, dear, and let me know how things progress. Are we all electronic aunts and uncles??? sorry, I'll stop now... [26|50] Wow... Name: Miles #1 @9670 Date: Fri Aug 27 08:40:19 1993 From: Nowhere [916-836-1548] Re: Well, BY: Light #31 @5415 As the father of twins( 1 boy, 1 girl) congratulations... and some words of advice. Take VERY good care of yourself, even more than most single pregnancys. Twins do tend to come early, and if they come too early things can get really scarey. And most important, get lots of sleep, since the following 6 months you will hardly get any. Later, they are great. They keep each other busy, and they always have a play mate. [28|50] Ummm... Name: Light #31 @5415 Date: Mon Aug 30 02:25:14 1993 From: The Guild [504-282-8270] I do not know how to say this. This is not the woman you know as Light. This is her husband. I have been watching her post here for sometime now. And now I must bring bad news to you. Martha [you know her as Light] died this morning. She fell down the steps of our house. She broke her neck. The twins are dead to. I will be calling here for the next week or so to see that you all got the message. Then I will ask that her account be deleted. If you have anything to say, please say it. I am sure it would make her feel good to know that there are people out there who cared for her. She would have been happy. Sorry. I just lost a wife and two babies in one day. I have nothing more to say. [29|50] God! I'm so sorry to hear that! Name: Nightshade #303 @5415 Date: Mon Aug 30 05:42:15 1993 From: The Guild [504-282-8270] Re: Ummm... BY: Light #31 @5415 Light was/is a very good person. Now she is going to the Light. I would like to help. I have emailed my voice phone number to her account. Please check her email. The title of my email is the same as the title of this post. I am speechless. My thoughts and prayers are with you. [30|50] The next message is to Light. Name: Nightshade #303 @5415 Date: Mon Aug 30 09:43:55 1993 From: The Guild [504-282-8270] Re: Ummm... BY: Light #31 @5415 I feel kinda funny saying this private message on a public sub, but her husband requested that if anyone has anything to say, say it. If anyone feels funny about reading a private message to someone who has passed on, please hit the spacebar for the next post. [31|50] Light.... Name: Nightshade #303 @5415 Date: Mon Aug 30 10:08:32 1993 From: The Guild [504-282-8270] Re: Ummm... BY: Light #31 @5415 My deepest condolences to your family, and best wishes for you and your children on this great journey. Last night I was up very late crafting power objects. One of the things I made was a journey-necklace. This is a rather bulky affair, with packets made of corn husks containing things one might need on a journey. Each packet is detatchable, without dismantling the necklace, to be used as needed. Then when I went to bed I could not sleep, I felt way hyper even though it was past 1 am. I had several visions of rather cryptic symbols which I now understand. These were not hyptnogogic images, but visions, as I felt quite awake. When I read the news this morning, I wanted to scream. I am currently on a semi-fast to raise energy regarding a matter of community interest, but I have not eaten anything since I read the news. I don't know how long I will continue with this, but please feel free to apply the energy to help your passage. I wanted to write a letter offering to "go to great lengths" to help your family. I wanted to bury a bunch of power objects in your honor. I wanted to do all sorts of drastic stuff. But inwardly I heard a familiar rebuke. "You hippies always overdo things, why is this?" I called my teacher, and he suggested that I do a meditation and bury a single gift in your honor. I intend to bury a piece of lightening wood, since you said you want some. I will not bury all the items I wanted to bury, as this would put you in an awkward position -- what would you give in return? We have discussed this as well, you remember what I said on this, but since giving something in return is an important matter for you I will not put you in an awkward position by burying all I planned to bury. As for what to give in return for the lightening wood, don't worry about it. You've already given plenty. Also, please don't feel bad about the obligations you left behind. We all have a time to go; your time came when you were very busy. But don't worry about things; life will go on. I have offered your husband my voice phone number and am willing to help with these things any way I can. Please don't feel guilty for leaving at this time when you had many obligations; your time came and it has nothing to do with anything you or anyone else did. Just stay with wahtever guide you have chosen for this great journey, and walk toward the light, you and your two little ones. When the time comes, as it comes for all who have passed over, for you to face an evauation of your life, don't be afraid or cop an attitude; instead, face it with courage so that you can move on to the next stage of your journey. This is very important; souls which put off facing the evaluation are not very happy. When I did my meditation for you a little while ago, I saw you walking toward a circle of light, leading a toddling child on each hand. This is good. I hope to go to the funeral for you and your children, but this may not be possible, as it may be a private affair and I don't have transport. I intend to hold the full moon drum jam in my yard as usual, as I feel you would want me to do this. I intend to drum in your honor and apply the energy raised to help your passage and help your family heal from this great loss to them. I also intend to wear the journey-neckalce for a while in your honor, and give most of it away piece by piece in your honor. You need not give anything in return; this will be the concern of those I give it to. Again, best wishes for your journey, and my deepest condolences to your family. I may have more to say later, but this is all for now. [32|50] This is Light's tcher. Name: Light #31 @5415 Date: Mon Aug 30 15:18:05 1993 From: The Guild [504-282-8270] Re: Light.... BY: Nightshade #303 @5415 I am very old, and it greives me to see her die before me. It is not really fair to her family. She knows all you have to say. She will give something in return for your gift. It may be a happy thought, a feeling of love, or comunication. Only she knows what she will give. I sought you out Nightshade.But I was to late. I saw her death in your soul. I do know why this happened. I do not understand how one so far from her and not knowing her face could see her death. Dancing Wolf [33|50] How I could see Name: Nightshade #303 @5415 Date: Mon Aug 30 16:08:02 1993 From: The Guild [504-282-8270] Re: This is Light's tcher. BY: Light #31 @5415 I may not have ever met Light face to face, but we have had some intimate conversations on this sub and via email. I am sorry that you saw her death in my soul, I hate to be a bearer of bad news. One of my teachers has noted my unusual ability to pick up information just when it is needed, from unlikely sources, without seeming to go looking for it; I guess it was this ability operating here. But I am very sad that this ability, which is often so useful to the community, has in this case revealed such a thing as Light's death. I have been on a semi-fast for a while, raising energy to address a community problem in this area. (My teacher has advised against my going on a "real" fast at this time, because of health reasons and worldly obligations). But now my guide is telling me to eat normally. So I guess LIght has crossed over successfully and there is nothing more for me to do. (Except bury the lightening wood, of course.) And as for the community problem, it's on hold. So I guess I better eat something and recover my strength for the next work. Thanks for taking the time to acknowledge my tribute to Light and address my concerns. Perhaps one day you can tell me (probably in private) why this happened. But then maybe it's better that I not know. [34|50] Perhaps. Name: Light #31 @5415 Date: Tue Aug 31 01:35:00 1993 From: The Guild [504-282-8270] Re: How I could see BY: Nightshade #303 @5415 Once again, this is Light's teacher. I am staying at her husbands place for a little while. Right now, he is in no mood to talk. No medicine that I can give him will help him. His sickness is in his mind. I must tell you...all of you...that Light's best friends were on this computer. No one in her nieghborhood spoke to her because of her Indian heritage and her Indian beliefes. They even ridiculed her use of Indian magic. It was unfair to her and made her hatred for white people grow. Then she called here. She began to think that white people were not all bad. She was young. Her brother and sister-in-law had made the decision to try and have another child the night before she died. That made her happy. I believe she died because all she had to do here...all of her responcibilities were taken care of. And so the Great Spirit called for her. She now walks in the land of many colors with her two children and her brothers child. I am sure she is happy now. [35|50] I had this come to me... Name: Kari Ana Smith #8 @2911 Date: Wednesday, September 1, 1993 10:32 am From: The Bulls Locker I [209-883-4335] After reading of lights passing. My sincere condolences for Lights family and friends and all of us who knew her on this sub.... A Light Went Out A light went out the other day The world was saddend The hopes and dreams Stopped for one moment in time Breathless from the loss Tears flow and cleanse the earth The sweetness rises up To the heavens The love is showered down Her spirit is within us I know this is but a token of my feelings. My sincerst sympathies. [36|50] damn Name: mela #12 @8267 Date: Fri Sep 03 09:33:40 1993 goodbye light. i'm sorry. i am indian too. you did not know that. i don't know what else to say. i never do. i love you bye [37|50] More messages for Light Name: Nightshade #303 @5415 Date: Tue Aug 31 12:16:49 1993 From: The Guild [504-282-8270] I have posted about Light's passage on a local sub devoted to departed friends and relatives. I did not mention her name, neither did I say anything on a netted sub, (that is, a sub which would be read by others on other boards) as this did not seem appropriate. But I posted something on "The Dead Friends Sub" on another local board here, asking people to post messages of blessing to Light's and her children's journies and condolences to her family. I hope I was not out of line doing this. I plan to capture these messages and post them here, in her honor. My guide has told me to eat normally but I don't feel like it just yet. Maybe in a few days, after the full moon. Many people ridicule me as well for my magickal practices and beliefs, and I too find most of my friends via this medium. But I can't afford to hate all members of any race, as I have ancestors from three continents. And hate is a very dangerous thing, anyway, especially for a magick-user to harbor hate. I am glad that posting here helped LIght to overcome her hate. I am glad, also, that her brother and sister in law decided to try for another child. I did a ritual last night where I buried the lightening wood and planted something in Light's honor. There were some very very powerful manifestations during that ritual. What exactly happened I shouldn't say publicly, but they were very powerful. And earlier, while I was meditating, Light's spirit came to me in the form of a mosquito, asking for food for the journey. She remained on my arm during the whole meditation, and had her fill without causing me the discomfort mosquitoes usually cause. I have already begun to give away the things on the journey necklace, and each person I gave them to, I told them Light's story. So she is remembered. I plan to hold the drum session in my yard thursday night, the last night of the full moon, as usual. Anyone who loves Light is invited to come and drum in her honor. The drumming may start any time after dusk and end any time after about 1 am. The session is informal; come and go as you please. If anyone reads this and would like to come but can't come physically, come in spirit; lots of people come in spirit. YOu can come in spirit even if you read this on the net after the fact. If anyone would like directions or more information, hit "A" after reading this letter. It would be good to have lots of people honoring Light and her children, blessing their passage, and praying for healing for her family. Well, I said at the end of my previous message that this is all I have to say for now but I guess there was more to say. "You hippies always seem to overdo things -- why is that?" [38|50] Frankly Name: Miss Scarlett #1 @3315 Date: Wed Sep 01 21:03:08 1993 From: On My Own [303-745-6594] I'm kinda at a loss right now for something to say. Since some of Light's family is reading this, just know that I was surprised and saddened to hear what happened. I guess this is my way of expressing condolences. The woman had a great heart, as I saw her concern for her family, her future family and her brother's family. That is a nice quality for a person to have. I've noticed a lot of folks on this sub talking about "Indian" religion. I would like an explanation of those beliefs if someone would care to en- lighten me (I'm curious), especially regarding death, afterlife, etc, as that is where the references have been. Rather than tie up the sub with that, would someone who knows and practices this care to e-mail me? Thanks. [39|50] Once again, Name: Light #31 @5415 Date: Wed Sep 01 04:33:34 1993 From: The Guild [504-282-8270] Re: More messages for Light BY: Nightshade #303 @5415 This is Light's teacher. Her husband has seemed to loose intrest in most things which is normal for a man who has just lost a wife and two children. You do not over do things, Nightshade. I believe that Running Dear (Light) had many positive things about her. She deserved the best...and so she got it. Nothing can be over done or underdone. Just remembering her is enough...but if you wish to do more than that, then it is your wish and it is your way of honoring her death. I thank you for letting her feed. You were a brave person for allowing that to happen. Most people would run if a mosquito were to come to them and ask them for food. I wish you luck in your drumming session. At home, I will be beating my own drum on the first night of the full moon. I will have my own ceremony. I would come to yours or even invite you to mine, but I am afraid what will be done will be to powerful for you to stand. I appologize to all reading this. I know that most of you are Catholic or Christian. I know you do not care about these things. But this is our religion. We worship the same god you do, but we do it in a different way. No people are killed in our ceremonies. We only use things of te earth, air, fire, and water. No living thing is killed for our perposes. Dancing Wolf [41|50] It was no big deal Name: Nightshade #303 @5415 Date: Wed Sep 01 07:23:16 1993 From: The Guild [504-282-8270] Re: Once again, BY: Light #31 @5415 I knew that mosquito was Light, and I'm not afraid of insects. Most of my power animals are insects. Some people think I'm a little crazy when I let mosquitoes bite me, and refuse to kill roaches, and apologise to ants when I step on their mound, and stuff like that, but who cares what people think. Dancing Wolf, thanks for the encouragement, and I hope your drum session last night went well. Actually, lots of people on this board and BBS in general are pagan, so they'll probably know and understand what's going on. It will take a week or so for this to get out on the net and another week or so for replies to come back in, but soon people all over the country will be honoring LIght and her children and praying for her family's healing. [42|50] She will apritiate it. Name: Light #31 @5415 Date: Wed Sep 01 16:04:34 1993 From: The Guild [504-282-8270] Re: It was no big deal BY: Nightshade #303 @5415 I am sure. She has a good soul. Had and still does that is. Dancing Wolf [43|50] Au revoir, Light... Name: Jay Dyson #1 @9939 [SubGenius Minister] Date: 09/01/93 at 17:50:33 From: Dyson's Sphere [ASV/GSA] [909-931-7395] [Recipient]: No Reply Necessary. Hello Light, Reading the news of your death was like receiving a straight punch to the gut -- it took the breath right out of me. While I was but one of your acquaintances here, I trust that you will find my wishes for you and yours sincere and heartfelt. I have lost many a friend and loved one to death...some might say I should be used to it by now, but it never gets any easier. Wherever you may be, it's my hope that you find happiness and love there. "Though you may disappear, You're not forgotten here." - Peter Gabriel There is nothing stronger in the world than gentleness. [44|50] To Light Name: Capri #231 @8403 Date: Thu Sep 02, 1993 13:28:56 From: Fire Chat BBS [804-330-0620] Sir, I do not know if you are religious, but I'll share my feelings with you. Book of 2 Samuel 18:33 Then the king was deeply moved, and went up to the chamber over the gate, and wept. And as he wept, he said thus: "O my son Absalom - my son, my son Absalom - if only I had died in your place! O Absalom my son, my son!" Adonais Shalom Capri [45|50] satanic? Name: Killjoy #73 @8119 Date: Thu Sep 02 08:54:54 1993 From: The Driver's Seat BBS [801-973-0193] The only power is that which comes from God. Satan is the great deceiver. God's Pawn. [46|50] Light... Name: Ray #74 @8119 Date: Fri Sep 03 02:03:51 1993 From: The Driver's Seat BBS [801-973-0193] Re: This is Light's tcher. I deal in fact, but am guided by feeling. Some might call this guide spirit, or the light of Christ, or some other name to try to understand. I can only hope my guide is wrong now, for if not, someone is very sick. I just keep feeling this Death of Light is some kind of hoax. Like I said, I hope I'm wrong. [47|50] A SySop's Duty...PLEASE READ Name: Chrysalis #1 @5415 Date: Fri Sep 03 08:45:06 1993 From: The Guild [504-282-8270] My friends, I want you all to know some facts that will probably cause you some anger while they give relief from pain. You have been the victims of a sick teenager's fantasy and the object of her desperate need for attention by any means. I am talking about the LIGHT story which unfolded here over the past few weeks. It was complete fantasy from beginning to end, a totally untrue and bogus lie. I don't know how many of you had doubts, but I don't want any of you to spend your good energy and your decent concern for people on the "death" of a young woman. I feel that it is my duty to inform you of these facts because as Sysop of the BBS where they were posted, I feel rersponsible for what is put here by any user. This girl has played on your sympathies in the past under another alias. That time, she was found out by one of her relatives and he came onto the sub to stop her lies. At the time, I thought he had been a bit too harsh in his methods, but now I see that he was no doubt justified then and it was the only way to pull her back. I doubt this girl knows reality from fantasy and for that we can all grieve, but as for being her dupes or a source of attention we only do her more harm. So, I am telling you that there never was a woman named Light...no sister and brother-in-law who's baby died....no pregnancy with twins...no death by falling down stairs, killing herself and the unborn twins. The "husband" who rushed into BBS within hours of that so-called-death, despite the fact that he didn't use a computer or know where to call or where to post (a BIT too much even for that story)...he and the old "teacher" Dancing Wolf were both HER. She's NOT Native American Indian heritage and that lie plus the emotional turmoil the story engendered did a great deal of damage to people here on this BBS. The reaction you read by one of the local users was the only sincere, true part of this mess. I only hope it didn't cause undue distress to any of you on this sub who work so hard to extend empathy and advice to others. We know now who this girl is in the real world (yes, even a totally alias BBS can't hide people who do mischief) I've been doing this stuff for 11 years so what I don't know about BBS in New Orleans, probably hasn't happened yet. We are advising her and her family to get her some help (it seems she has done a few "death fantasies" other places in the past which got only passing attention. This sub was a fertile field for her sick little imagination). She will NEVER have another account on The Guild BBS...and believe me, a person's spelling and posting style is as good as a fingerprint, so I will know if she tries. Again, forgive this intrusion into your good motivation and patience. MY apologies also to the host of the sub. Chrysalis 1@5415 [48|50] Am I angry? Name: Nightshade #303 @5415 Date: Fri Sep 03 12:17:45 1993 From: The Guild [504-282-8270] Re: A SySop's Duty...PLEASE READ BY: Chrysalis #1 @5415 No. I learned a lot, about life and death and myself. We all learned a lot. We express our thoughts and feelings openly. Too many times in this society we deal with death by shoving things under a rug. But here we have counselled each other and paid tribute to her passing and wept together openly. That we were decieved as a community is not a good thing, but that we learned from this is a good thing. I'm not sure about Light's Native American heritage or lack of it. Most people in this country, except recent immigrants, have some NA ancestry, however remote. She may have some. But she cannot be a true full-blood or she would have known better than to do this thing. I just talked to my teacher. He advised that everyone ignore her for a while. He said she has a lot to learn, and must learn these things on her own. So please, everyone ignore her for a while. [49|50] I feel foolish Name: Kari Ana Smith #450 @2900 Date: Sat Sep 04 09:17:51 1993 From: Maxie's Toy [209-526-5899] I realize we are dealing with a sick mind. I do feel very foolish. It's hard for me to trust people. I AM NOT GOING TO LET THIS INCIDENT TAKE AWAY WHAT i HAVE GAINED FROM THIS SUB!!!!!!. I hope this girl gets some help soon. My true hope is that none lose faith in our safe place because of this. I haven't. To have a safe place doesn't mean you won't get burned, to me, it means if we do get burned we can get passed it because we hold together. [50|50] ya know... Name: mela #12 @8267 Date: Tue Sep 07 05:29:54 1993 i didn't want to say anything... but i kind of suspected it? i'm not even sure why. i mean i was willing to believe it (weird things happen, you should see my family, especially my sisters and it's all true) but something in the back of my head kinda went "waaait a minute..." i tried to explore this feeling but that's all it was, no reason for feeling that way, just did. [50|50] i'm thinking about this more... Name: mela #12 @8267 Date: Tue Sep 07 06:03:22 1993 "sick, twisted fantasy?" no. no, she shouldn't have been doing it on computer bulletin boards, especially a sub where people talk about deep, sensitive, often private stuff. i agree that she needs a proper outlet for it. i cannot condemn her out of hand. i know what she is doing. under the proper conditions, it is an art form. i don't just mean i have *read* about people who do this sort of thing--i used to do it myself. we could go on discussing this sort of thing--walking the fine line, the nature of reality, how far is too far. i am a surrealist. such things are part of my universe. and i am a very conservative surrealist, i know some who would say it was alright for her to be doing exactly what she did in this sub. brings us back to the struggle between art and psychiatry, or as nin would say between the artist and reality. has anyone here read breton's novel _nadja_, or the story of nina in anais nin's book _collages_? i kind of admire her. she told a story, and, with the exception of slightly too tv-indian names, she told it well. we believed her, didn't we? and as for the idea that this is "fantasy", how come nightwalker (sorry, i forgot his name) the gentleman who was crafting the power objects and felt all strange, how come he felt those things? i mean the night before he read the message? what was that all about? [21|50] My worst nightmare. Name: Miles #1 @9670 Date: Sat Sep 04 07:57:18 1993 From: Nowhere [916-836-1548] RE: Ummm... BY: Light #31 @5415 /Sorry. I just lost a wife and two babies in one day. I have nothing more to /say. Only one piece of advice. Survive. Beyond that, there is not much more you can do. Good luck. [22|50] There are many different paths here. Name: Miles #1 @9670 Date: Sat Sep 04 08:11:36 1993 From: Nowhere [916-836-1548] RE: Once again, BY: Light #31 @5415 /I appologize to all reading this. I know that most of you are Catholic or /Christian. I know you do not care about these things. But this is our /religion. We worship the same god you do, but we do it in a different way. /No people are killed in our ceremonies. We only use things of te earth, air, /fire, and water. No living thing is killed for our perposes. I am personally agnostic. There are many here who are athiest, there are probably Wiccans here too. I personally beleive the Indian ways are far better than the ways of the White man (yes, I am one) which does cause me to want to know more about the beliefs, though these ways probably never would be my ways. I have trouble reconciling an "All powerful/all knowing god" who would permit these things to happen. Being mere guests of Mother Earth makes more sense. As father of twins, this hits a little close to home. There is no living "happily ever after". This truly is the land of Peace, Love, Tranquility, and NO MERCY. [23|50] Farewell to Light. Name: Miles #1 @9670 Date: Sat Sep 04 21:22:59 1993 From: Nowhere [916-836-1548] The world is now a darker place. May you find your peace. "And we who must remain go on crying just the same". "With negligent regret, the world sped on" [24|50] Why do you hope you're wrong? Name: Nightshade #303 @5415 Date: Sat Sep 04 16:55:35 1993 From: The Guild [504-282-8270] RE: Light... BY: Ray #74 @8119 WHen this thing started developing, a few local users and the sysop told me to calm down, eat something, this is probably bogus. And I said, I hope you're wrong. Then I caught myself. Which would I rather, that someone lied or someone died? I believed LIght. I believed her because this is a "real" sub, where we are supposed to discuss real-life problems. This is not a place for D&D or other types of fantasy. Even more, I believed her because of her Native American connection. Native Americans are not supposed to lie in community, and in some tribes, the penalty for doing so is severe. So when certain elements appeared which should have let me know that this thing wasn't real, I chalked them up to coincidence. At the time, I would have rather believe that someone died than that someone lied; at least with the former she keeps her honor. And then there was the matter of my visions.... But in the end, I can get over being duped, and I gained something from it. We all did. And I'd really rather consider that I was duped, than consider that a young woman, pregnant with twins, died by a freak accident. Wouldn't you? [25|50] REQUEST TO THE HOST Name: Nightshade #303 @5415 Date: Sat Sep 04 17:01:21 1993 From: The Guild [504-282-8270] RE: Why do you hope you're wrong? BY: Nightshade #303 @5415 I don't remember ever seeing a post of the rules of this sub, not sure if there are any. Are there? But it seems to me that the rules should include no discussion of fantasy problems unless they are clearly labelled as such. If the rules do not contain this provision, please consider amending them appropriately. Also, please let me suggest that the rules of this sub be posted periodically from your end, and that all sysops carrying this sub make them a permanent message. Thanks. [26|50] I'm very sorry to hear this. Name: Eli Bolin #1 @9949 Date: Thursday, September 2, 1993 at 10:13 am From: The Wireless Cafe [ASV/GSA] [909-621-2007] [Regarding]: Ummm... [Penned By]: Light #31 @5415 [MsgStatus]: No Reply Necessary. I had a lot of respect for Light, and my thoughts/prayers go with her. My deepest condolences. I tcan't think of anything to say.... [27|50] Dancing Wolf....... under Light's account: Name: Lovecat #2 @9939 [Sensual Seraph] Date: 09/04/93 at 18:54:06 From: Dyson's Sphere [ASV/GSA] [909-931-7395] [Regarding]: Once again, [From User]: Light #31 @5415 [Recipient]: No Reply Necessary. While I am greatly saddened to hear of Light's passing through, on... I also know, as you do, that she has gone to the place to which she was called. Her time here was finished, her job done and she lives on; herself in her spirit, and on earth through those who loved her, whose lives she touched. It is we who are left behind who hurt, who grieve and who must pass over this time and continue with our lives to honor the one gone. I think you, Dancing Wolf, do many of us here a disservice by believing that we do not care, or want to here about - your spirituality. Maybe now is a time for you to look inside and find some tolerence for those you feel do not understand you, those who shun you...? Acceptance of those people is the hardest and also a very rewarding part of - spirituality. I am what you would call a Christian, though I simply consider myself a believer. I was raised in the Episcopal church, but I no longer attend; the structure and teachings I am thankful for, we always were taught love and acceptance of ALL that is.... whether we understand it or not. I believe that we all worship the same God, by whatever names and ways and prayers and dances and symbols, etc... that we need. All is valid because all was created by the same One... [28|50] I guess you were right...... Name: Miss Scarlett #1 @3315 Date: Sun Sep 05 07:35:30 1993 From: On My Own [303-745-6594] RE: Light... BY: Ray #74 @8119 Frankly I wasn't sure what to think. It was as if I was talking to a real person who was really going through this. The fantasies were very real. However, it took me a while to get into the story. Then I did start to believe it. The "death" was rather strange and sudden, but feasible. At first, I kept saying "this sounds a lot like so-and-so" (don't want to use the name in case that's not appropriate), but then it sounded more and more real. When Chrysalis said she'd been on the bbs before under a different name that's the first name that came to my head. I guess if the girl ever gets the help she needs, she'd make a great writer (smile). [29|50] Nightshade Name: Miss Scarlett #1 @3315 Date: Sun Sep 05 07:37:54 1993 From: On My Own [303-745-6594] RE: Am I angry? BY: Nightshade #303 @5415 I'd still like an answer to the question I asked (in e-mail of course) about some of the things you discussed relating to death and Native American beliefs. I'm still curious. [30|50] This is not condemning or defense Name: Miss Scarlett #1 @3315 Date: Sun Sep 05 07:47:30 1993 From: On My Own [303-745-6594] but a thought came to me just now. Light may have actually done something good, despite the extenuating circumstances. How many people go through this sub, just reading, afraid to post what's going on with them? Some of the suggestions of sources of help offered with regard to the story may actually be read and heeded by someone actually going through the situation. I'm not saying what she did was ok, but out of the whole mess may have come some good. Just think about it. [31|50] I think we need to look beyond her actions. Name: Kari Ana Smith #8 @2911 Date: Monday, September 6, 1993 1:21 pm From: The Bulls Locker I [209-883-4335] I have been struggling with depression and panic stress disorder for many years. One of the obstcles I have had to face is many mental health professionals labeling me Borderline Personality Disorder. Many of the symtoms I had were written off as attention getting devices. I thank God that I have found a Doctor who was able to see that I have Panic Stress Disorder and that it is treatable with the proper medication and psycho-therapy. During the years before my rediagnosis I was subjected to so much pain because the people around me were cynical and disbelieving. I was constantly belittled and regarded as hopeless. Yes, I know, most Borderlines are considered hopeless. I have a lot of empathy for the one known as Light. This girl is in immense pain and I can't really blame her for what she did. All she really wanted was to feel loved. She was feeling this way here, before she was blown out of the water by her sister's boyfriend. I can understand why she came back with a new identity and a new story to tell. Despite the anger some may be feeling, I believe we need to, as a whole, invite her back with her original handle and face up to her deception. If she is given the chance to be forgiven by us and still be welcome here, she may finally feel worthy of getting better. Lest any of us forget, this girl is very ill and will be very ill her entire life if someone doesn't accept her as she is. A person with this disorder has to fight this illness her entire life. Can't we forgive this girl and perhaps give her a helping hand. She needs us to help her. I for one forgive her. I will gladly accept her back if she agrees to return with her original handle and agrees to make amends to us all. Whatever, I forgive her and hope she will feel free to E-mail me. This sub is to help others after all. [32|50] Questions to Angelic Host Name: Ehall #76 @7201 Date: Sat Sep 04 05:48:18 1993 From: Sisters, Family and Friends [702-891-8532] I have been reading some of your mesages through the Sisters, Friends, and Family BBS here in Las Vegas, and am inderested in some of the files which were listed in one of them. I am especialy inderested in the ones relating to MPD. I am the spouse of a multible and need to get all the information that I can to be able to help and support her when se needs it with out smothering her at other times. Is there a way for me to don load these files through the net or will I have to call your BBS directly in order to do so. I also have several specific questions I am looking for answer with. My wifes therapist has informed me that she has no time to talk with me and help me understand things. Is there some one who might be willing to chat with me and answer some of my questions? If you can please sent me a note, I am EHall at Sisters, Friends, and Family in Las Vegas, NV. [33|50] ..... Name: Sparrow #129 @8403 Date: Sat Sep 04, 1993 11:16:13 From: Fire Chat BBS [804-330-0620] I will probably get fried for what I'm about to say... Has anyone thought about how CONVENIENT (sp?) all this is? Take a look around... Anyone notice something....umm....STRANGE???? First light gets on here and makes a wonderful announcment about her sister's baby. Then, in a few days, she gets one here and delivers tragic new. That part isn't quite a far fetched as the rest, What's the next thing you see? She starts talking about how her sister's husband is looking for a divorce. Then we hear that mere days before the birth of the child, her father died. I haven't read my packet from a few days ago yet (I'm online now, not offline like usual), but I'd be willing to bet it has some MORE tragic news from Light. Next thing I see is someone using Light's account to tell us that she has died. In seperate letters it doesn't seem like much, but throw it all together and you come up with one VERY big tale of sorrow and death. Another thing, has anyone noticed how similar the handwriting styles are? I see no BIG differences in the husband's writing compared to the so-called doctor's writing style. I thik we've been led astray here. My opinion is that NONE of this really ever happened. It's all in the mind of one VERY sick (but still alive) girl. IF any of this stuff I have read is true, then you ALL have my very deepest appologies. That comes right from the heart. I'm not trying to start a bunch of crap here. That has NEVER been my intensions. All I'm trying to do is raise a few questions. I want everyone to at least THINK about what I have said. I don't think Light is dead. I think she sits down to the computer every night and writes this stuff out. I don't know to many doctors that are that worried about how many friends someone had, or how someone hated the "white man". I just think it's a little far out into left field. Everything I read just has this air of...umm....false reality. It's all VERY believable in most cases, but I think, dear miss Light, that you laid it on a little TOO thick. What I'm trying to do is make sure this stays the safe place it always has been. We've been violated SOOoo many times that it's a little hard to swallow this MONSTER horse pill of information. Maybe I'm wrong. If so, then I'm sorry. If Light has truly passed on, then a mistake was made upstairs. It wasn't her time. However, I don't think I'm wrong. One of the first mistakes made was the invention of twins. My wife has been pregnant for 42 weeks (she was over due), and I've done EXTENSIVE research on pregnancy and all the things connected to it. Like Ultrasounds, tests done by doctors, etc... The modern medicines and tests we have would have been able to detect twins very quickly. Sometimes they missfire, but only in about 10% of the cases. When you first get pregnant, the doctors schedual for an Ultrasound. That test alone should be able to tell you if it's twins or not. I just think it's all a little strange. I do have some happy news. I'm not all full of doubt today. Yesterday (9-3-93), my wife finally had her baby. A healthy baby boy. 7 lbs. 2 oz. That's right, I'm a daddy. As you can see, I'm a new father that is just running over with happiness. I want to scream at the top of my lungs about my new son. I'm really not bringing up this stuff with Light to be mean, or to try and make her posts invalid, or to even soil her good name. I just don't want anyone here to get hurt. I don't want to see nice people like Nightshade and Kari Ana Smith, and Scarlet, and all the other wonderful people here get sucked into something that could cause some real mental scars. I don't want to see it all fall down around our ears. I'm sorry I had to ask all these questions, but I want you to go back and read them one more time. Only this time think about how unbelievable all this is. If it's still believable to you after that, then think nothing more of it. Just give it a chance. Peace. [34|50] Dang, how to say this Name: Capri #231 @8403 Date: Sun Sep 05, 1993 07:30:57 From: Fire Chat BBS [804-330-0620] You know, I just got off the phone, not 24 hours ago with a VERY sick person that somehow got into my life, and now this. I know Light will probably never see this, but I just want her, and all of you to know, that I think she's a monster. How DARE she DO this to us? Have YOU no MORALS for what you do? For hurting people EMOTIONALLY!!!! What makes matters worse, she HAD TO have enjoyed it all. Pardon me, Light, but you truly SUCK! As far as I'm concerned, I hope God is holding a special place for you, cauz you have certainly done me a lot of harm, dog. [35|50] I guess the questions are: Name: Daddy \/\/abbit* #55 @8403 Date: Sun Sep 05, 1993 12:58:56 From: Fire Chat BBS [804-330-0620] Re: A SySop's Duty...PLEASE READ A.) Isn't it true that Light and Enigma are one and the same person? B.) Why did YOU allow this to continue on for so long without putting a stop to it? Don't you ever read the posts on your BBS? [36|50] Speaking of which Name: Capri #231 @8403 Date: Sun Sep 05, 1993 13:36:15 From: Fire Chat BBS [804-330-0620] Say, you know, that DOES make sense. I don't know if you've figured this out yet, but this has really brought out a bad side in me. It just utterly annoys the living &$&@^!!! (Dang, line noise) out of me for someone to play games. It's a good thing, wait, lemme see? [You have been the victims of a sick teenager's fantasy Yeah, you DID say child, THAT makes it barely understandable. The SICK part, I don't feel that is a very apt description for that dog's attrociously vicious behavior. Who DID SHE THINK SHE WAS? And, perhaps next time, thou wilt keep a tighter leash on your Domain, System Operator? I am still, however, appreciative of the fact that you DID do something about it. THAT, to say the least, was very kind of you. [37|50] I KNEW IT!!! Name: Sparrow #129 @8403 Date: Sun Sep 05, 1993 17:40:15 From: Fire Chat BBS [804-330-0620] Re: A SySop's Duty...PLEASE READ Enigma. The one word that just kept repeating itself over and over in my head. Now the truth of the matter has been exposed. The pain of yet another violation into this sub has been exposed. When will it ever end? Will people ever be able to show compasion again on here? These and many more questions are comming soon. I hope you all can take this in stride. I now go to weep for the loss of a poor, sick little girl. Enigma.... [38|50] Will y'all cut it out! Name: Capri #231 @8403 Date: Mon Sep 06, 1993 15:18:02 From: Fire Chat BBS [804-330-0620] Look at this: DDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDQuoting ActiveDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDD [98/100  Networked Psychiatrist's Couch [Title: My worst nightmare. [Date: Sat Sep 04 07:57:18 1993 (3 days old) [Origin: Nowhere (California) [916-836-1548] [From: Miles #1 @9670 WWIVnet DDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDQuoting InactiveDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDD Well, nevermind, it's dated. But, hey, just to say it again: Light was a CROCK! Please, let it dies, this is insane, maybe we can erase some msgs? I guess not, this is netted...Oh well... This board isn't just a chat thing, people, emotions are involved here, far as I'm concerned, and I sure hope if someone else is thinking about pulling a 'Light' stunt (no pun), think again, and take it somewhere else, like a mental hospital, ok? [39|50] yeah right. Name: Killjoy #73 @8119 Date: Mon Sep 06 15:12:38 1993 From: The Driver's Seat BBS [801-973-0193] RE: Farewell to Light. BY: Miles #1 @9670 Guess what people....I died today.I'll call the board tomorrow and be a cousin of mine,then everybody in my family will die and I will come back from the dead and post of my wonderfull resurection. Beat this drum baby, Native american religion does not worship one god, they worship many..I personally think your feeding us a bunch of shit. [41|50] duped Name: Ray #74 @8119 Date: Tue Sep 07 02:49:24 1993 From: The Driver's Seat BBS [801-973-0193] RE: Why do you hope you're wrong? BY: Nightshade #303 @5415 I find I must agree....to a point. What I meant by I hope I was wrong was that I really hoped that someone out there was not so sick so as to pull a trick like this one. I saw a lot of real pain and true sympathy in the post and didn't want to think that some might have their ablitiy to trust impaired. I did get a private e-mail to that effect from a California user. [44|50] After I have tried to be so cool about this situation It.... Name: Lady French #140 @2911 Date: Wednesday, September 8, 1993 11:43 am From: The Bulls Locker I [209-883-4335] occured to me that, Enigma have been Terminator to make her former plight seem more believable. Remember how we all blasted Terminator for invading our safe space. This would have given her self conscious permission to run away. As much as I love my compurter, I certainly wouldn't be dragging it around from one place to another. as rude as this may sound. Is it possible that this person is safe in her family home with two normal (as possible) parents, her own computer and her own car???? I was wondering all this. what do you all think. Could it have all been just one giant hoax. Is this the extreme version of the prank telephone calls of a child???? Could the entire Enigma story be a complete role playing fantasy????? HMMMMMMMMMM. [45|50] Re: I guess the questions are: Name: The Coach #1 @2911 Date: Wednesday, September 8, 1993 5:30 pm From: The Bulls Locker I [209-883-4335] RE: I guess the questions are: BY: Daddy \/\/abbit* #55 @8403 /A.) Isn't it true that Light and Enigma are one and the same person? /B.) Why did YOU allow this to continue on for so long without putting a stop / to it? Don't you ever read the posts on your BBS? Well, I just happened to see your question, checked out the sub, and see what is going on. This is the first time I have really checked out this sub. And may I be so bold as to think I can speak for most sysops. We try. I have over 600 messages coming in a day, I have files, and net connects, and user e-mail, logs to read, and things that have to be done to keep the BBS running, and I have a job and a family and need my sleep. I spot check the 98 subs that I carry, I fully read the subs that I host, that are mod subs, or are sysop subs for the latest news, but I never have time to read all the subs. I can not police 200+ users to make sure they are behaving. I do not have time to read every post that goes out from my system. I count on my users that are adult to help me keep things running smooth. Even a small BBS like mine requires a lot of time and we just do the best we can. I used to be well known in this area for the size and number of post. Now I almost never have time to post, I spend all my time answering e-mail. I have done 43 post and 934 e-mail. How many post do you see from sysops? I mean real post, not the little one or two line "Clean it up or lose access" post. I used to give several warning, lead them by the hand, show how to use a BBS, now I give them one chance, then they get screwed by uedit. I just don't have the time to be a nice guy. We run these boards because we enjoy it, but I know many sysops who have taken on more then they should have, it turned into work, and they said screw it and closed shop. This is my hobby, not my job, if it starts causeing me grief then it will be gone. Well, it is 5:24 and I need to run, as always. PS. I do not read this sub much, so if you say anything to me please do so in e-mail and you can post it here, you can then follow it up with my e-mail to you posted with my full permission. Later, BR. [46|50] Forgiveness for "Light" Name: Queen Mother #33 @15286 Date: Wed Sep 08 18:52:53 1993 From: Alpha Complex [512-478-3332] Msg Status - No Reply Necessary I agree that Light should be forgiven IF she will begin posting under her "real" handle (whatever that is) and drop the fantasy stories. Perhaps she could have a probation period of full acceptance... [48|50] Light/Enigma/This sub Name: Chrysalis #1 @5415 Date: Wed Sep 08 00:49:14 1993 From: The Guild [504-282-8270] I've carried this sub for as many years as I've had The Guild on an IBM. This is the longest, continuously online BBS in the New Orleans Area...first on Apple, then on IBM/WWIV. I monitor all the subs I carry, but many of the net subs are here because of user request and there isn't time to read them daily if they don't fill a personal need of mine. I scan here every few days....and that's the reason I caught the Light thing. Believe me, if you had been paying attention and not so secure in the safety of a nationally netted sub, any of you would have spotted the pitifully concocted (and badly written) soap opera that was unfolding. I never believed it when Enigma was posting how you all believed the ludicrous claims she made daily...and the maudlin attention with which many of you fed her need for attention. Still, I saw it doing no harm at the time. When Terminator came in and exposed her foolishness and told you how it was hurting her sister, I briefly thought about putting a stop to his posts, but realized that a dose of rreality would serve her well and be good for the rest of you who had swallowed her bull for so long. There's a lot of fantasy in BBS and it's not a sysop's job to protect the world from it. My rules and ethics include NO personal exposure of someone's real information (unless they do it themselves or provide bogus info)...NO exposure of a double alias who is playing....but most of all, not allowing people to deliberately hurt others with words. I caught Light's story close to the mid-point and began following it. To tell the truth, I knew it was Enigma by the spelling and poor style of posting and I laughed, not believing that you wouldn't all see it or call her on it....but all she got was more attention. I nearly fell off the chair laughing when "The Husband" posted his "Death announcement". I'd been wondering how she was planning to get herself out of this sticky situation. Then, I found out that Nightshade was in deep pain, believing it was all true. I helped her to see it was not, and the person behind it was someone she knew and had helped in the real world. That's when I realized that you were all really so secure in one another's long term company on this sub that you WOULD perhaps believe this lie and be hurt. I immediately removed Light's access. I posted the explanation immediately...and it's taken over a week for some of you to have seen it...that's Network traffic for you. Would you believe that the little bitch logged on as her "teacher" Dancing Wolf and asked for an account so that people could write "him" their reactions and he could read and post on the Psych sub. THAT WAS MORE THAN ENOUGH! I sent blistering mail to ole "Dancing Wolf"....addressing her by her REAL name which I never do with alias users...after which I deleted that account also. This girl will never have another account on The Guild. I don't know whether any other BBS in her calling area carries this board (don't think so) but I'll be watching for her here and so should you all. This child has used every BBS she can in the area with different aliases to play her little "death games" claiming that various members of her family had died and once, threatening imminent suicide on a multi-node chat BBS...realtime talk with several people. I don't have to tell you that BBS alias users are too cynical to fall for this repeated bullshit. She never got the satisfactory attention anywhere until she found this sub. You've all gone through some tribulations that make you good, empathetic people, but you can't forget that occasionally an unreachable, chaotic person creeps into your alias world. I'm female...I've lost loved ones, and I'm old enough to have accumulated much life experience. It's made me tough, but not hard. Still...I run my BBS with an iron hand and am known as one of the toughest/fairest Sysops around. I can't protect you. If I miss something here that you doubt, write me and I will look into it. This is the first problem I've ever hosted for you in 4 years. I do somewhat resent the accusation of "How can I let a thing like this happen?" Well, my friends and fellow travellers through this fog we call life...I didn't let it happen...YOU did. As with anything else...we learn from it. [49|50] Forgive her. Name: Nightshade #303 @5415 Date: Wed Sep 08 08:02:36 1993 From: The Guild [504-282-8270] RE: Dang, how to say this BY: Capri #231 @8403 Light has done a very bad thing. She has betrayed this place of trust. Her believable writing style and her references to her NA hertiage have added to her credibility. So what to do now? She has been shunned and exiled, classic punishments for offenses against the community. Some say, forgive her and let her back in provided she apologises and uses her original alias and sticks to the truth in the future. Others are willing to curse her soul. SHunning and exile need not last forever; sometimes they last for a set period of time, or until the offender performs certain tasks indicating that they are willing to make amends. The sysop here says that she won't come back via this board, but she may be back via another board. So what do we do? We are here to support each other. Cursing anyone or anything is a very bad thing to do. When one person turns cynical, the world is a little less sweet. We have a right to be angry, but let's not be angry in such a way that it is destructive to us. So if you can't bring yourself to forgive her just yet, just leave her alone for a while. [26|50] wrong again killjoy Name: mela #12 @8267 Date: Fri Sep 10 05:29:52 1993 [Regarding] [yeah right.] [Posted By] [Killjoy #73 @8119] because there are many (hundreds, maybe thousands) of different indian tribes with different ideas, names for things, etc., you cannot say "native americans do this and don't do that". for the plains indians, for instance, you hear them talking about all of the nature spirits and that, but behind those there was always "wakan tanka", the great mystery, that got translated as "the great spirit" by early folklorists trying to understand. yes, there are indians, lots of them, who would indeed claim to worship one god. again, except for slightly too tv-indian names, light's descriptions were exactly like those found in some of the literature. and by the way, one of the reasons *I* didn't catch on is that there is an organisation called pan- american indian association that *does* use very tv-indian names, partly because they've adopted a lot of people who are either only part indian, suspect they are indian, or are simply sympathetic to indian beliefs and want to learn more about it. the way "dancing wolf" wrote sounded so much like the editorials i have seen in their newsletter that i really was prepared to believe it was something like that. [50|50] hey capri... Name: mela #12 @8267 Date: Fri Sep 10 05:42:13 1993 [Regarding] [Dang, how to say this] [Posted By] [Capri #231 @8403] i understand what you said, but bear in mind stuff's gonna happen in life. it's hard for anyone, especially since a lot of the people in here were abused including myself, you keep feeling like you want to have some place where you have 100% control over events, well, that just cannot happen all the time. i think the whole thing was kind of a surrealist moment, but that's just my personal way of "dealing with it" or even rationalising in a way, strange for a surrealist to say but sometimes that's how it is. to be honest i didn't feel cheated or angry in any way. i was just glad that it was a story and not real life, because some stuff has happened in my family that is exactly like what light wrote about, and i was ready to accept it all at face value. and there are times when unfortunate events all do seem to take place at once or within a few weeks. i had this happen in january of 1992, without going into details, so i know it can be so. so one of the things we have to figure out how to do is how to deal with when stuff happens that offends or upsets some of us even in places we've tried to make "safe" and that like this sub. because chrysalis obviously has her hands full and she can't ride herd on this sub all the time. shoot, it took this long to find out she was moderator, i thought hey jood! was moderator. [5|5]: yeah.... what was that all about? Name: Nightshade #303 @5415 Date: Sun Sep 12 10:37:33 1993 From: The Guild [504-282-8270] RE: i'm thinking about this more... BY: mela #12 @8267 >i kind of admire her. she told a story, and, with the exception of slightly >too tv-indian names, she told it well. we believed her, didn't we? and as for >the idea that this is "fantasy", how come nightwalker (sorry, i forgot his >name) the gentleman who was crafting the power objects and felt all strange, >how come he felt those things? i mean the night before he read the message? >what was that all about? Yeah, that really had me wondering, too. This was one of the reasons I believed her, despite all the fishy elements. Why had I been inspired to make those power objects the night before I read the message? Why had I had all those visions and feelings? Why was I inspired to fast and give away valuable items and do all the other things that we traditionally do when someone dies? There were some really amazing manifestations that third night, when I buried the gift in her honor while my friend, in another part of town, did a divination. I can tell you in email if you're interested; I'd like to share this experience with someone who understands, as you do. So if you'd like to hear of these manifestations, just autoreply. I understand now where all these manifestations came from. WE as a virtual lodge were taken on a journey thru the underworld by a trickster guide. This guide, a spirit, provided me with the inspirations, visions, and feelings. Any communal journey requires a storyteller; Light provided this role well. It also requires someone to keep a spiritual focus for the group; for this I was elected. It also requires a group to make the journey; we were all part of this group. It requires a sacred space; this sub provided that. There are other elements as well required for a communal journey; the spririt guide who was with us at the time provided all of these things, and the experience was very powerful. The Trickster, as you know, is a very high teacher, but only if one stays with him and pays attention to the end. At some point on the journey, when one begins to realise that one is being tricked, the temptation is to banish or desert the guide, but one should refrain from doing so; one who banishes or deserts the Trickster guide cheats themself of the lesson(s) and is left with only a bad feeling of having been duped. This is why I maintained my mourning state even when the fishy elements began to appear. I am glad that you understand these things. It really bothers me to see people cursing Light now, instead of thanking her for the lessons she provided and praying for the healing of the real-life anguished young woman who is capable of such things. She has a lot of talent, and when she gets her own darkside under control she will do great things for the community. Peace, Nightshade [28|50] Excuse me, Name: The Traveler #1 @8267 (Religion?) Date: Sat Sep 11 23:19:54 1993 [Regarding] [I guess the questions are:] [Posted By] [Daddy \/\/abbit* #55 @8403] but for a sysop, we don't always have time to watch what is going on. The fact that we occasionally catch these things on our own is a miracle in itself. I have over 100 subs here, and host about 10. I have school, other activities, and then a life before the computer and BBS even cross my mind. Even when the BBS gets its share of time, I don't have time to read the messages on there, as my mailbox is always full and I have to scan files to make sure someone didn't upload a porno flick in the transfer section. Granted, this probably shouldn't have gone on this far, but the fact that she is getting help is good. The whole point is that this sub did what it was supposed to do. It caught someone who was expressing that they needed mental help, and in the end, it was recieved. Are you to blame the host for the fact that it succeeded in what it was supposed to do? One thing I would really not like to see this sub flooded with is "Deepest regrets" "How DARE you"'s aimed at Light/Enigma. We're supposed to be listening to people (REAL people with REAL problems) here, not complaining how many of you all came under the influence of something that was little more than a BBS Soap Opera. [29|50] RE: Forgiveness for "Light" Name: Jaxom #6 @2900 Date: Thu Sep 09 07:24:29 1993 From: Maxie's Toy [209-526-5899] IN REGARDS TO: Forgiveness for "Light" WRITTEN BY: Queen Mother #33 @15286 >I agree that Light should be forgiven IF she will begin posting under her >"real" handle (whatever that is) and drop the fantasy stories. Perhaps she >could have a probation period of full acceptance... I strongly disagree. This individual needs to learn the meaning of the word "consequences". The consequences for abusing the trust of the people on this sub is a TOTAL loss of access to it. [30|50] The message HAS been received. Name: Miles #1 @9670 Date: Thu Sep 09 19:55:32 1993 From: Nowhere [916-836-1548] RE: Will y'all cut it out! BY: Capri #231 @8403 You are right. It was dated. I was sucked in as well as many others. Color me STEWPID. But I would prefer to find out it was a stunt, rather than have it be real. I'll survive my gullibility. And if it was Enigma, I can just about understand who some of the others around might have given her the push off the edge which may have CAUSED this stunt. Does that make it okay? Not hardly. Neither does it make it okay what else has gone on here. "Light" does need help. And can no longer find it here. Burning Bridges is not a promising career. [34|50] Why do you hope you're wrong? Name: Capri #231 @8403 Date: Tue Sep 07, 1993 13:54:12 From: Fire Chat BBS [804-330-0620] Re: Why do you hope you're wrong? "[lied; at least with the former she keeps her honor. And then there [was the matter of my visions...." What about your visions? Please, explain, if those visions were real to you, what significance they had. Would you say it is accurate for me to assume that those visions were, either pertaining to another person, and you made a mistake, or, the other and less desirable choice, that the vision was altogether false, or just plain nothing? I don't want to offend you, but I feel offended, like someone has pulled my leg, which they have, and someone may still be, which I'm hoping to find out. [36|50] Well, the whole affair has a positive side... Name: -=<< Doc >>=- #1 @8414 Date: Wed Sep 08 10:46:29 1993 From: Whistlestop West [804-784-7014] once again, as always here, people are willing to show compassion, love and support. We should not feel cheated or tricked, used or insulted by the fact that we were lied to...we should feel affirmation of the goodness of the people who responded positively. Score...1 little cheater...bunches of sincere, concerned, compassionate and kind people. I don't feel the least bit hurt. [39|50] The post you're SPEAKING of Capri.......... Name: Hey Jood #1 @8403 Date: Fri Sep 10, 1993 15:50:02 From: Fire Chat BBS [804-330-0620] Re: Yo, what is the deal? was a case of someone who has just begun reading the message base. I happened to be watching her at the time - and she didn't read the WHOLE message base. :) Looks like she may be reading it now, however. I have been very quiet about the "Light Caper" - have really had to think about all of this and the resulting posts after Light (Enigma) was finally found out. I've heard MANY say that we have LEARNED something from this - something good. I'm REALLY afraid that I can't go along with that. We, as survivors, have learned ONCE AGAIN, that you CANNOT TRUST ANYONE! We have learned that because we are VULNERABLE - as those in ANY type of recovery are - we are taken advantage of by those who need an atmosphere that is "delicate" in order to continue their OWN abuse of others. What Light/Enigma did was HARMFUL - plain and simple. It was WRONG. Nothing GOOD came of this for us - but SOMETHING good could come of it FOR her. I have to agree that she should be allowed back on the system - if she can FACE us - under her old and original handle - and there are many here, myself included, who are MORE THAN WILLING to talk with her about her actions - explore the FEELINGS behind the actions and BE HER FRIEND. But ONLY in the arena of honesty and the true willingness to share the reality of FEELINGS - not the fantasy of lies and deception. Don't know about the rest of you, but I've had FAR ENOUGH of that in MY life. Because of our backgrounds, we ALL exhibit some type of dysfunctional behaviors - we may just not have done it as publicly as Enigma chose to do it. But, I CHOOSE to recognize my dysfunctional behaviors (when they arise) as PART of what I need to and MUST ***FACE*** in order to heal. It may not be my responsibility that I HAVE these behaviors - but it is clearly my SOLE RESPONSIBILITY to FIX THEM! I would be more than willing to be a support base for Enigma as she continues on her VERY difficult journey - but ONLY if it's done with the most open and honest heart that she can possibly muster. [41|50] Safe in her home Name: Nightshade #303 @5415 Date: Fri Sep 10 07:47:44 1993 From: The Guild [504-282-8270] RE: After I have tried to be so cool about this situation It.... BY: Lady French #140 @2911 I don't think she enjoys a stable home life. She is in a lot of pain, and taking drastic measures to get a little attention and love. I don't think she and Terminator are the same person either. Different posting styles. [44|50] Light/Enigma/This sub Name: Capri #231 @8403 Date: Sat Sep 11, 1993 11:01:46 From: Fire Chat BBS [804-330-0620] Re: Light/Enigma/This sub Well, glad to see that you are so callous. If you KNEW it was BS, why did you let it go on? I'm new to this BBS, and was NOT aware that some people like you are capable of DOING ME SUCH GOOD!!!! Thanks bunches. Your language is not commendable. [45|50] Yes, that dog...I don't stutter Name: Capri #231 @8403 Date: Sat Sep 11, 1993 11:07:09 From: Fire Chat BBS [804-330-0620] Re: That dog? Huh? Sorry, I disagree. You mean, I should have SEEN IT? Thanks, but I wasn't here when Enigma was around, so I DIDN'T see it coming. And no, I'm sticking to my guns, that child must've had the devil in her to do such a thing... Sorry, I guess I trust people too much...Perhaps it's time to leave this sub? [46|50] Nope, it's not time for you to leave this sub, Capri...... Name: Hey Jood #1 @8403 Date: Sat Sep 11, 1993 22:45:27 From: Fire Chat BBS [804-330-0620] nor should anyone else leave it. As YOUR sysop (this is his host system) I KNOW that you weren't around during the Enigma days. And this sub IS for the purpose of discussing FEELINGS. I do understand the sub host's comments about not reading and really "getting into" ALL subs on her system. Fire Chat is a very large system - I have well over 1000 users with high daily traffic and four telephone lines. We have upwards of 75 subs on this system - I have lost count. I DO NOT READ THEM ALL. Something can very well "erupt" on a sub and I don't know about it until someone points it out to me - usually my husband because he reads alot of the ones that *I* don't read. I also have a large population of adolescents on my system and I am kept quite busy riding herd on them 24 hours a day - so no, I DON'T see everything that goes on. It's "OK" for a sysop NOT to read every golden letter and/or word posted on their system. But it's GREAT for her to supply a base, such as this one, for her users. When things go wrong - and in this case REALLY wrong - we have to, as sysops, step in and make changes as necessary. Sometimes the losses have to be cut quickly - whether or not they are emotional in nature. I have to support her in her decision to act as she has in the case of Enigma/Light. None of us REALLY knows how we might have handled it had it occurred from our OWN systems. Let's try to go on - keep on sharing and caring about one another and redeem what we have left in the extended rubble left by our acquaintence Enigma. It's up to US to make this sub what it's REALLY supposed to be and has always been in the past - overlooking a time period when one individual, obviously in EXTREME pain attempted to turn the sub into something that it was never intended to be. Big hugs, Capri. [50|50] Visions Name: Nightshade #303 @5415 Date: Sun Sep 12 01:06:11 1993 From: The Guild [504-282-8270] RE: Why do you hope you're wrong? BY: Capri #231 @8403 >Please, explain, if those visions were real to you, what significance they >had. Would you say it is accurate for me to assume that those visions were, >either pertaining to another person, and you made a mistake, or, the other >and less desirable choice, that the vision was altogether false, or just >plain nothing? My visions were very real to me. SOmeone had died, taking with them two children. I now think these visions pertained to some other person, and I just happened to get "hooked in" to them. I had been fasting for several days previous on a community matter, so I was already in a visionary state. Hooking into that death was just a matter of changing the channel, so to speak. I don't think the visions were altogether false; they were too coherent. If you would like to know more specifics, let's take it to email. >I don't want to offend you, but I feel offended, like someone has pulled my >leg, which they have, and someone may still be, which I'm hoping to find out. Ok so someone pulled your leg. Get over it. Learn something from it and give thanks for the lesson. Hopefully, the lesson will not be on the order of "people are lying SOB's, I won't have compassion on anyone but my immediate circle anymore." Instead, one of the lessons could be something like, "when faced with death, it is ok to counsel each other and weep openly." Another lesson could be, "when someone offends you, do not curse them or call them bad names. Instead, forgive them and move on." Still another lesson could be, "it hurts to find out that you have been deceived. But in the long run, it is better to know the truth than to be deceived." There are probably others in this as well. SOmeone may still be pulling your leg? Who might that be? And what if someone is pulling your leg still? What are you going to do about it? Will you get mad and curse the trickster, or will you watch closely and see what it is you're supposed to be learning from the trick? You see, here's where we differ. I assume you're a jew or a christian, as you've quoted judeaochristain scripture. There is no trickster (that I know of) in the judeaochristian tradition; instead, people of that trad vilify the tricksters of neigboring religions, painting them as devils. But I am a pagan, and in my traditions (plural, as I'm a mutt), the trickster gets the respect due any teacher. I believe that when one is being tricked, one should pay attention to what lessons can be learned from the experience. The lessons are often very valuable, and are often of such a nature that they could not have been learned in any other way. The bad taste most people get in their mouth after having been tricked is because they got mad, quit paying attention, and failed to learn the lesson of the trick. They paid their tuition but didn't get their diploma. They feel cheated, rightly so, but they're not sure what they were cheated of. The fact is that they were cheated of the lesson of the trick, and they cheated themselves by getting angry and by failing to pay attention. And if you suspect that the person who posted as Light is now posting as Nightshade, please note that the "fingerprints" are different. [50|50] i have to agree with nightshade Name: mela #12 @8267 Date: Wed Sep 15 01:47:56 1993 even though i am not a pagan or anything remotely resembling it. i don't know about his visions being attributable to a real death somewhere and he thought it must have been light when he read the stuff; what i do know is that the "trickster" is a universal psychic construct. i don't know if it has any objective reality but hell, does anything really have any objective reality? the stuff about christians not having the trickster in there, well they have it alright but they think it is the devil. i think that's what happens when any religion or any person takes themselves too seriously. which means if the trickster doesn't "really" exist, you're still opening yourself up to a trickster-type experience because the first unusual, unexpected or off the wall thing that happens is going to set you spinning around on your head--just like what seems to have happened to some of the folks in here re this light thing. morale of le story: don't get too complacent. there is a difference between the kind of trust hey jood was talking about, and complacency. in surrealism we take everything at face value, but always remembering that there is stuff underneath or behind the scenes of what we see, particularly if we think life is getting too "ordinary". because just when you think you have got life all figured out, something or someone happens and you find out you don't really know everything... life is just something you can't control! ------- [i wrote something very much along these lines in response to nightshade's email to me... something about my framework of reality is different from his but that i generally cut through the metaphysical part because i've been there so much i'm trying to simplify everything. i also told about dada and surrealism and shock value, and about what a rascal guru is, which we all probably need one or two of in our life, and said in confidence that i thought the whole thing was great and i wished light would come back and tell more stories.] [5|5]: Pan American Indian Association Name: Nightshade #303 @5415 Date: Tue Sep 14 09:12:21 1993 From: The Guild [504-282-8270] RE: wrong again killjoy BY: mela #12 @8267 Sounds like a cool organizatoin. How do I get in touch with them? By the way, are you planning to go to the Peltier demonstration in DC starting Nov 21? A friend and I plant to leave from here in New Orleans, we may meet up with someone in Virginia, and possibly more people along the way. Maybe we can get a convoy together! Thanks for the info on PAIA. PS ... by the way, I'm female. But I think it's neat that you referred to me as a "gentleman", as I am a man inside. [told her I am too!] [33|50] to Chrysalis re. Light/Enigma/This sub Name: Queen Mother #33 @15286 Date: Sun Sep 12 00:14:21 1993 From: Alpha Complex [512-478-3332] RE: Light/Enigma/This sub BY: Chrysalis #1 @5415 Msg Status - No Reply Necessary Thank you for posting your lengthy but reasoned and articulate defense of leaving the Light soap opera to unfold without your intervention. I don't agree with your conclusions but can respect your opinion. I would like to point out, in my own defense, that I only recently began participating in this sub and had no knowledge of the Enigma history. Please do not think of me as simply gullible...I took the posts here at face value...I can see now that I cannot be open and trusting here. That is sad... [34|50] SysOp Responsibilities Name: Jimmy Dickens #2 @29978 Date: Sun Sep 12 23:07:34 1993 From: SUNSHINE CORNER BBS [919-443-0112] RE: Light/Enigma/This sub BY: Chrysalis #1 @5415 I haven't been a SysOp as long as you have (11 years I think you said), but I have been around to know how much responsibility and humanity a SysOp should have when attempting to run a BBS. I hear SysOps complain all the time about getting 600+ messages in per day and answering 40+ E-Mails and am really tired of reading this kind of crap. If your BBS is too big for you to handle and control, you should either take it offline, get someone to help you control it, or take it down a few sizes. You said that you caught the hoax about halfway through. THIS is the time you should have stepped in, rather than sitting in your chair and laughing. This person hurt a lot of people on this sub, and I PERSONALLY think its the responsibility of the SysOp if AND ONLY IF it is known what is happening. Agreed, if something slips by you (E-Mail or a post that you didn't get time to read) its not totally your fault. Also agreed, you did at least have the human decency to let everyone know about the hoax, and THAT, I appreciate. Two things that really got to me about your post: 1- You laughed several times... knowing full well what was transpiring and knowing the responses that were being sent to 'Light'. How can you sit by and laugh at someone who is ripping the hearts out of so many people reading this sub across the nation? 2- You said that YOU didn't do it, but WE did.... How do you explain that one? Again, the post came from your BBS and you KNEW about it (and even laughed). I feel that your lack of intervention when you first found out about the hoax was in itself contributing to the problem. 'nuff said No aliases allowed on my BBS! This solves a lot of LIGHT problems. [36|50] Agreed Name: Nightshade #303 @5415 Date: Sun Sep 12 10:47:42 1993 From: The Guild [504-282-8270] RE: The post you're SPEAKING of Capri.......... BY: Hey Jood #1 @8403 HOnesty is paramount. If she'd done what she'd done on a fantasy board, it would have been cool. And if she'd return under her original alias, apologise, face up to what she's done, and accept the consequences, it would be very healing, to us and to her. But I disagree that one of the lessons to be learned from this is that you can't trust anybody. Human beings are social creatures. We have to trust each other, or we will die. The wisdom is in knowing whom to trust, and in recovering gracefully when one has trusted wrongly. I, too, have been abused. Rather severely, in various planes of my being. It is a very fortunate (and rather rare) person who hasn't been abused at some time in their lives. Ideally, from all this abuse comes lessons, many of them hard, and all of them high. Frankly, I don't think "don't trust anyone" is a very high lesson. For some of the lessons that could have been learned, please see my previous post to Capri. [37|50] You as SYSOP Name: The Mermaid #28 @9939 Date: Sun Sep 12 18:31:44 1993 From: Dyson's Sphere [ASV/GSA] [909-931-7395] You have done NOTHING wrong. I was totally shocked that anyone would attack you for not monitoring the post here. You shouldn't have too. We choose to read the post here, and in doing so must also take the responsibility of being able to spot a fake. The person, light/enigma, deserves no sympathy. She is a total loser at the game of life. It seems she knows only to well that she has problems but a worth while person realizes this does something to better themselve. She seems to wallow in self pity. She knows if she truly wanted to make her self "better" there are people here and other places that would take the time to do so. Some people enjoy playing the part of the poor tourmented soul, she makes it here personality. So SYSOP, you did no wrong. I personally thank you for taking the time to sort this thing out. Those people here who are worthwhile need not waste their time with feelings for a girl who has none. [39|50] It may have seemed more obvious from where you are. Name: Miles #1 @9670 Date: Mon Sep 13 21:01:17 1993 From: Nowhere [916-836-1548] RE: Light/Enigma/This sub BY: Chrysalis #1 @5415 We tend not to notice area of origination unless it was local. That probably would have been enough to tip it off. Yes, you can color us all suckers. Understand though, that she really does need help. No real harm has been done, except to her. You action was appropriate, and appreciated. [45|50] to HEY JOOD on resolution of LIGHT problem Name: Queen Mother #33 @15286 Date: Tue Sep 14 13:18:30 1993 From: Alpha Complex [512-478-3332] RE: Light/Enigma/This sub BY: Chrysalis #1 @5415 Msg Status - No Reply Necessary You posted to Capri (the "don't leave, Capri" post) that you understood how sysops and sub-sysops could not be expected to read and follow every post in the subs. I agree with that. You also posted that you supported the action taken to resolve the problem of Light's posts. I do not agree with that. My reason for disagreeing is that Chrysalis stated she was aware of the bogus sob story and allowed it to continue. Here's a quote from her much longer message on the subject: > I caught Light's story close to the mid-point and began following it >To tell the truth, I knew it was Enigma by the spelling and poor style of >posting and I laughed, not believing that you wouldn't all see it or call >her on it....but all she got was more attention. I nearly fell off the >chair laughing when "The Husband" posted his "Death announcement". I'd >been wondering how she was planning to get herself out of this sticky >situation. Capri wasn't here for the Enigma episode and neither was I. Even if we were, I don't see how the situation could have been allowed to continue without some intervention by Chrysalis...even if it was only to communicate privately with Light that she should 'fess up, drop out, or be axed... [47|50] Well, Nightshade Name: Sweet Capri #231 @8403 Date: Tue Sep 14, 1993 07:12:00 From: Fire Chat BBS [804-330-0620] Re: Visions I am not quoting your msg...I'm replying to your talk about your visions, and whether or not I've been tricked, and your view on the subject. I disagree with what you've said, but, it does seem that you have a good head on your shoulders, and are, therefore, going to stick to your guns. There is obviously little sense in an ongoing battle on this board. Your views and mine seem opposite, and so be it. Some of the stuff that you speak of is somewhat offensive to me, but, that is not your problem...I think at this point, the smartest thing for me to do, is that I can agree to disagree :) Let's drop it, and I'll try to learn from you, if nothing else, to keep a bit more of an open mind. [48|50] taking posts at face value Name: Nightshade #303 @5415 Date: Tue Sep 14 09:06:50 1993 From: The Guild [504-282-8270] RE: to Chrysalis re. Light/Enigma/This sub BY: Queen Mother #33 @15286 "gullible...I took the posts here at face value...I can see now that I cannot be open and trusting here. That is sad..." Yep, that's one of the unspoken rules here, to take what is said at face value. it bothers me that so many people say they've learned not to be open and to trust from this experience. There are certain good lessons to be learned from every experience, but I don't think this qualifies as a good lesson. [49|50] Nope, Chrys isn't the moderator Name: Nightshade #303 @5415 Date: Tue Sep 14 09:14:00 1993 From: The Guild [504-282-8270] RE: hey capri... BY: mela #12 @8267 "because chrysalis obviously has her hands full and she can't ride herd on this sub all the time. shoot, it took this long to find out she was moderator, i thought hey jood! was moderator." She's the sysop of the board where all this Light stuff originated. Hey Jood!, as far as I know, is the moderator. [44|50] Tsk, well. Name: Sweet Capri #231 @8403 Date: Wed Sep 15, 1993 12:42:12 From: Fire Chat BBS [804-330-0620] Gravity...It's a law we can live with... Well, it's like this...I do agree, I flew off the handle. That, I should've handled better. I also agree, I got carried away with it all, and that is something that's rather immature, especially on a BBS, and THAT, also, is a durn shame, for me, for you, and for both sides of the issue. On the other hand, I'm still smarting emotionally. I still don't see the SysOps explanation as valid. Way I see it, if you're THAT busy, take yer board down, get someone to help you with it, or, at the very least, cut it down in size. Seems rather like someone complaining they can't mow their big yard on their own...It may not be your fault how your BBS grew, but it IS under your control. Yes, it WOULD be nice if everything in life went my way, and, oh, so nicely. I'm 'fraid that IS how I came across, and, at the time, that IS how I felt. I apologize for THAT, also. Look, we can go on forever on this. You guys on one side, me, on the other. I don't care what comes out of it, I am sticking to my guns. I may apologize for this and that, which, so be it, I handled impulsively. But I will NOT step down from my point of view, I'm sorry, it's just against me grain. I can, though, let it slide at this point. [45|50] Actually, the host of the sub is Maxie! Name: Miss Scarlett #1 @3315 Date: Thu Sep 16 06:41:08 1993 From: On My Own [303-745-6594] but basically, I think the sub runs itself for the most part. About a year or so back, there was a user named Cat Lady and she posted some family problems on here. Well, one of her male relatives came on and like a steamroller blasted her, similar to the Enigma situation. coming on strong like that does absolutely nothing for the situation except drive a person back inside themselves. After being duped, it's human nature to assign blame anywhere and everywhere. Part of the maturing process in life is to overcome human nature. If someone who chose not to post was dealing with SIDS (or knew someone who was), the information given regarding a bogus story still applies to that situation. That is why I said that Light/Enigma inadvertantly may have done a good thing. Just because the cause of the post was bogus doesn't mean the information is no longer valid. With a good spell checker, Light/Enigma would make a great writer. She has a really good imagination. All she needs to do is get her act/mental health together. I think it's time to stop dissecting the situation and move on to something else. [49|50] I think she has hit upon the crux of the problem.... Name: Kari Ana Smith #450 @2900 Date: Fri Sep 17 10:15:53 1993 From: Maxie's Toy [209-526-5899] IN REGARDS TO: Tsk, well. this sub is about expressing feelings. Whether I agree with Capri or not is irrelevant. Capri was expressing her feelings and thoughts. I do agree it's time to go on and address real situations now. I feel it might be wise for all of us to put aside the Light/Enigma saga, and continue on as a support sub and friends being here for each other. If another incident happens, lets see if we can't pull together and comfort each other. We might find ourselves healing much faster. [30|50] My Last statement....Chrysalis Name: Chrysalis #1 @5415 Date: Fri Sep 17 09:37:35 1993 From: The Guild [504-282-8270] Dear people, first let me express gratitude to those of you who have written here and in E-mail to support the actions taken on the Light saga. Intelligent people learn from these kinds of experiences and move on. I want you to understand that when some of you claim that I "sat and waited" and let Light continue her charade, you don't understand the time factor involved. I don't read this sub daily and rarely do I read all of it. When I came in to check message flow, most of those messages had already been posted. It was at about the point that her "husband" came in to make his announcement. I went back and picked up the entire thread of the story...and for me, being as experienced as I am with local users and their posting and spelling quirks, it was a reasonable given that this "Light" character was really Enigma. I think some of you were mostly offended by the fact that it made me laugh. Taking into consideration that I've been doing this BBS thing for about 11 years and have seen just about everything that can happen in an alias system (this is not a unique event), and also that I always laugh at Soap Opera and Gothic Romance plots...well, I'm sorry. I did laugh until I realized the potential for harm to you here. At this point I also saw somebody that I care about reacting very emotionally to the story. Given the speed of Net message flow, none of you had posted any reactions on this end. I took one day to talk to Nightshade about this fiasco and try to convince her of it's falsity. The next day I deleted the Light account and posted my message to you all, hoping to spare you the pain that I had seen it cause to Nightshade. She's an extremely intelligent, life experienced, but soft-hearted person. This business did its damage and I venture to say that none of you who post in here suffered anything close to what I saw it doing to her. Once I had her looking at the posts realistically, and convinced her of my theory (remember, at this point it was only conjecture...the proof on this end came later and is involved with real-life info which has no place in alias BBS), I deleted the Light account and posted my message. I do believe it's a Sysop's duty to protect people from harm, whether that be from Personal exposure, alias exposure or deliberately hurtful word attacks. I take that duty very seriously, but I also know that what I am able to do about harm will come AFTER the fact. I can't prevent in all situations, I can only hope to repair. I can't stop posts going out on the Net. I don't want to slow down message flow on an already cumbersome system by being forced to validate each one. This sub is especially high in emotional charge...given the subject matter. Nobody can protect you from an occasional chaotic person using your empathetic tendencies to play out a fantasy. There's no reason to fear or stop believing what you read here...just protect your "inner core" until you know the new users a little better and read their posts in context before you react. I can't believe that Light will try to sneak back with another alias, knowing that I'm watching. The person behind that alias will never be allowed on The Guild again with my full knowledge, by ANY alias. That, and the warning messages are all I can do here. The rest is up to you. Put this behind you and move on, letting this sub be whatever it has always been in your lives. Too much energy is being wasted on anger that results from your feeling duped. Too much anger is being directed at the wrong people (not to worry...I'm used to that, as all Sysops are). I'm not going to post on this subject again. Learn from it and move on with your lives. [31|50] I can vouch for that Name: Nightshade #303 @5415 Date: Fri Sep 17 23:28:05 1993 From: The Guild [504-282-8270] RE: My Last statement....Chrysalis BY: Chrysalis #1 @5415 For the first few weeks, Light's fantasies were a harmless game, she posting stuff about a fabricated personal life and we giving her the support and attention she needed. It was only when she "died" that things got weird. Here's the timetable: Monday morning -- Light's "husband" gets on, announces her death Tuesday -- Light's "teacher" gets on, accepts condolences and discusses philosophy Wednesday -- Light's "teacher" continues to post, Chrys talks me back to reality via email while my teacher does likewise via phone and face to face conversation Thursday -- Chrys posts her message to all, letting us know that it was not real. Four days, people. I know it seemed like it lasted much longer, but time stretches when things are weird, and things were very weird. Chrys could hardly have acted any faster than she did, and I think she did fine. Many of us suffered, but as Chrys noted, I doubt if many people out there took it as hard as I did. I really did do all the stuff I said I was doing. The path I am on requires that I be truthful at all times. So if I can forgive, I who am not even a worshipper of a great man who once taught forgiveness and was crucified for it, why can't we all? [36|50] Well, Nightshade......... Name: Hey Jood #1 @8403 Date: Fri Sep 17, 1993 09:45:56 From: Fire Chat BBS [804-330-0620] Re: Nope, Chrys isn't the moderator I wasn't AWARE that I was the moderator. But, if folks would like to HAVE a moderator on this sub - I would be very glad to take the position. Unfortunately, my system doesn't HOST this sub which would make control of posting (except from my own system) a little difficult. Shall we discuss having a moderator? (Then *I* can get axed when something fouls up! :) ) [40|50] Done nothing wrong? Name: Jimmy Dickens #2 @29978 Date: Sat Sep 18 17:04:34 1993 From: SUNSHINE CORNER BBS [919-443-0112] RE: You as SYSOP BY: The Mermaid #28 @9939 Then I guess by your statement that even if the SysOp had NOT stepped in and straightened the whole thing out, everything would still be ok? I'm responsible for everything that goes out on my system and every other SysOp is as well. To me, it was not a matter of overlooking messages, but laughing at some of them as they tore deep into the hearts of many readers who were so willing to help with the situation. Sorta like yelling "Wolf". [41|50] Hey Jood is Sysop of Fire Chat. Light, et. al. are from Name: HangDog #331 @8403 Date: Sat Sep 18, 1993 08:06:00 From: Fire Chat BBS [804-330-0620] Re: Nope, Chrys isn't the moderator > BY: mela #12 @8267 > >thought hey jood! was moderator. > She's the sysop of the board where all this Light stuff originated. Hey Jood > as far as I know, is the moderator. Light, et. al., are from The Guild. I *think* Chrysalis is sysop of The Guild. [43|50] Hey Jood isn't the moderator, either. Name: -=<< Doc >>=- #1 @8414 Date: Sat Sep 18 21:13:33 1993 From: Whistlestop West [804-784-7014] RE: Nope, Chrys isn't the moderator BY: Nightshade #303 @5415 The host of this sub is @2900...whoever that is. They have had a generally laissez faire attitude towards the sub in the past. It is up to the users to do their own monitoring or the subscribing sysops to use net val if their users get out of hand. [45|50] Capri, just for another record. Name: -=<< Doc >>=- #1 @8414 Date: Sat Sep 18 21:24:42 1993 From: Whistlestop West [804-784-7014] RE: Tsk, well. BY: Sweet Capri #231 @8403 Sometimes size of a bbs has nothing to do with sysop non-interaction. There are plenty of subs on Whistlestop that I never look at...they are there because some user or another wanted them and I carry the sub for them, not me. World War III might break out on one and, unless someone calls it to my attention, I wouldn't know. The difference in this situation is that the sysop DID know and allowed it to continue...that, I believe, was an error in judgment. [46|50] That is what I was trying to say. Name: -=<< Doc >>=- #1 @8414 Date: Sat Sep 18 21:26:29 1993 From: Whistlestop West [804-784-7014] RE: Actually, the host of the sub is Maxie! BY: Miss Scarlett #1 @3315 /situation. That is why I said that Light/Enigma inadvertantly may have done a /good thing. Just because the cause of the post was bogus doesn't mean the /information is no longer valid. I just got caught on my tongue. /With a good spell checker, Light/Enigma would make a great writer. She has a /really good imagination. All she needs to do is get her act/mental health /together. I disagree with this assertion unless she wants to turn out cheap, pulp books. [33|50] No, you're missing something here. Name: Nightshade #303 @5415 Date: Mon Sep 20 19:24:11 1993 From: The Guild [504-282-8270] RE: Trickster BY: Ray #74 @8119 > If the native people of this country honor the trickster as a teacher, us white folks must be very honored! No more bitching about screwing over the red man, why, we were only being good teachers. The trickster respects the person or group he is taking for a ride. He rarely causes true harm, and then only when the person is fighting him real bad. He does what he does in order to teach a lesson. But where is the respect shown the red man by the white man? The harm he has done is very clear, even to peaceful tribes which do not fight. And what is the lesson? [38|50] Far too much being made of Light/Enigma situation... Name: Lovecat #2 @9939 [Sensual Seraph] Date: 09/21/93 at 10:00:50 From: Dyson's Sphere [ASV/GSA] [909-931-7395] [Regarding]: My Last statement....Chrysalis [From User]: Chrysalis #1 @5415 [Recipient]: No Reply Necessary. Sure, many were upset/affected, but jeeze, get over it and get on with life. Big deal, in other words....
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